Cadaver Scents

[Pete]

Hi all,

What are peoples thoughts on cadaver scents.

I know there are Pseudo scents available on the net from companies such as Sigma, however I have heard they can be toxic and dangerous if handled incorrectly.

Other handlers I have spoken to use pig, others say this is wrong.

What other ways do people use to produce or replicate scents.

Your thoughts,

Pete.

[niki]

Not that I can tell you where to get scents......

.....But I was watching a programme on Crime and Investigation and they were demonstrating an HR dog to a court. They took a hankie covered it with cow blood, another soaked it in pig blood and the last had a single drop of human blood on it. They washed this hankie in cold water and then hid all 3 in different paper bags in the courtroom. In came the Doberman and completely ignored the two hankies soaked in animal blood but alerted on the single drop of human blood.

I was very impressed and I remember thinking that all this about searching for pig remains/scent will be the same as human, well obviously not!

Sorry slightly off subject

[Willy7474]

Every thing in the world smell different to a dog. When we train a dog, we associate a particular smell with an action, the alert, which get the dog a reward. The instance of the dog ignoring animal blood was simply the fact that it had not been taught to indicated on those particular scents, no reward, no indication. A disaster dog is taught to ignore cadaver scent and only search for live scent by the simple means of it gets its reward only on alerting on live scent. If the training is good enough it is possible to sometimes get the dog to generalise, Fire investigation dog have been known to alert on a scent that they have not been specifically trained on. They usually have 12 or so target scents in their library and because most accelerants have key components in the scent make up, the dogs recognises the key elements and alerts on them, not on a specific scent. The same applies to UK cadaver dogs. They are trained to alert on the general scent of rotting flesh, because we are not allowed to use anything to do with humans for training. Psuedo scent is the closest you can get to cadaver scent but is very expensive, hence why people use pig flesh, which is very close to human flesh.
The situation in the USA, as I understand it, is different from over here. They use the dog's detection as evidence in criminal cases. Here, the dog is used to assist in the location of evidence, which is then gathered by the Police.

[Pete]

Currently I am using human blood (my own) and pig bone (aged naturally).

I have had considerable success on this having spoken to a friend who is a Police 'Body' Dog handler. He has informed me that following a scientific report commissioned for the Police, there is no detectable difference between rotting pig and human (apparently after a time the scents are the same).

I am also toying with the idea of creating deposition fluids from used sanitory towels, hair and blood left to stand in water for a couple of months. I just have to persuade the other half to let me.

Has anyone else tried this?

Pete.

[Mojo]

Funny this subject has come up, I was chatting to an Ex-Policeman who was training his dog and he had wrote to the Coroner and asked permission to obtain body fluids, etc - but this was turned down due to this Human Tissue Act. Although he did suggest to contact the private funeral director's and request them to place a cloth/material on apart of the deceased body which apparently would absorb the scent?

Of course the funeral director's would need to explain the research to the family and to obtain permission, etc.

Maybe a step - sorry if not quite on topic!

[Pete]

I have heard of this (the cloth), apparently it does not break the Tissues Act and is therefore do-able.

I think to start off with though it is asking alot from the dog as the scent source is very minute.

Pete.

[suelipscomb]

Hi

I have read all re the above. I still think Petes idea with a drop of blood is the most uncomplicated.

I also think that a lot of people are so distraught about a death of a loved one, it might be difficult to gain their permission ref the cloth.

Sue

[Willy7474]

If you read the Human Tissues Act it is illegal to keep anything that you can obtain DNA from. That includes material that has been in contact with a body and also the soil below a body. So unless you are prepared to go to prison the only two substances open to us for use are Pseudo Scents and pig flesh. Pseudo scent is toxic to a degree, but if handled with gloves and mask, which you should be doing any way with all your scent sources (biological hazards), their is no problem. Please remember that you must also be approved by DEFRA to bury any scent source whether it is Pseudo Scent or pig flesh.
I don't know where we stand in law, with having our own material, teeth, hair etc. I can find no mention. Below are the purposes human tissue can be kept for and unfortunately no where does it say for training dogs.

Part 1

Purposes requiring consent: general

1 Anatomical examination.
2 Determining the cause of death.
3 Establishing after a person’s death the efficacy of any drug or other treatment administered to him.
4 Obtaining scientific or medical information about a living or deceased person which may be relevant to any other person (including a future person).
5 Public display.
6 Research in connection with disorders, or the functioning, of the human body.
7 Transplantation.
Part 2

Purposes requiring consent: deceased persons

8 Clinical audit.
9 Education or training relating to human health.
10 Performance assessment.
11 Public health monitoring.
12 Quality assurance.

[Pete]

Have consulted with Police with regards to what you can and cannot use and have been told the following:

1. Tissue belonging to yourself (i.e. your own blood) is not covered by the tissues act as you give your own consent for it's use.

2. With regards to DNA, this is a very grey area as if you take it as black and white then this includes:
a. Hair.
b. Tissue paper with faeces or nasal mucus.
c. A hairbrush.

I'm sure you can see that there is a great room for debate as to what is considered tissue.

Talking about burying bone and tissue is another grey area, by DEFRA rules: If you are burying items in agricultural or public areas then you must have a licence to do so. If you are doing it on private property then you are in the clear.

I have done a considerable amount of research with regards to Pseudo scents and found that it is not prefered by Police body Dog handlers/trainers, therefore they train with pig bone, flesh and human blood.

Pete.

[Mojo]

OK, how would it work if, a team member offered a used plaster which contained blood to use to assist a dog handler/trainer? The consent was there in the initial stage, i.e. "here have this if you want, I know your training your dog and need samples" and the dog handler/trainer took it?

To me the consent is there from one person to another for the usage of training their dog. I can see this is a grey area but there are some interesting points here. There's a Human Tissue At Case Study going on at the local hospital here - if I hear anything thats appriopriate I'll let you know Pete.

But if you find a hairbrush when out walking, where do you stand there? No permission has been gained but it was just there - does this then fall under the Human Tissues Act?

Interesting points on both sides here